Corona-app | Zondag met Lubach (S11)

De overheid komt met een corona-app. Maar we weten nog niet hoe ‘ie werkt en wat de voor- en nadelen zijn. Marleen Stikker en andere experts hebben voorwaarden bedacht waaraan de app moet voldoen: hij moet bijvoorbeeld tijdelijk, transparant, volledig anoniem, vrijwillig en gebruiksvriendelijk zijn. Iedereen wil dat we gewoon weer veilig naar buiten kunnen en zo’n app kan daar vast bij helpen. Maar we moeten daar wel goed over nadenken, want hoe gaat het leven met zo’n app eruit zien?

Dit is het elfde seizoen van Zondag met Lubach. Zeven dagen nieuws in dertig minuten, satirisch geremixt door Arjen Lubach. Vanachter een desk. Op een stoel. In een auto. Nee, niet in een auto. Zondag met Lubach, zo goed als nieuws. #ZondagMetLubach zie je iedere week om 21.20 uur op #NPO3 en YouTube. #ZML

Deze video komt uit uitzending 9 van seizoen 11 van Zondag met Lubach: https://www.vpro.nl/zondag-met-lubach/kijk/afleveringen/seizoen-11/aflevering-9.html

https://www.vpro.nl/zml
https://www.npo3.nl/zondagmetlubach

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Transcript

Now…The virus can give up, because the government is making a corona app."As the name already mentions: the corona app. Using apps on the phone to monitor the number of corona infections …… and to keep them under control." Yes, the corona app.On Tuesday evening, Minister Hugo de Jonge [healthcare] said that the government wants to have an app made to warn people …… if they have been around someone with corona.And that is great news, because perhaps such an app can enable something approaching normal life.Except that app doesn't exist yet. We don't know how it works and what the pros and cons are,so before we can say anything about it, the most important thing first:See what the people think of that app! Nieuwsuur! [news program]"Would you download such an app? "" Yes I think so. I would download it. "" Don't think so. "Interesting.
– There is something to be said for both of them.Yes.We are already a bit further in our search now. RTL news:" I find it an er, yes … top idea actually. "Yes, I don't know. I think it is genius or something.Thank you for the contribution.Also EenVandaag thought:" We still know almost nothing, so PUBLIC POLLS! "Gijs Rademaker, you have investigated whether there is support for such an appYes, we've investigated that today and …… as you can see, there is support!
– Ah the support is there. That is great.I'm impressed how little information people need to make a well informed choice.It does matter a lot how you present the additional information. As an example:Sir, do you want a corona app?
– Yes! Of course! Great idea, yes.What if the government can track you?
– No, certainly not. No way.But if it can be done anonymously?
– Yes, then of course.And if it becomes mandatory?
– No no no, go away!However then perhaps we can ease the current restrictions.Then yes. For sure also for the economy.
– Well, as you can hear, there is support.But again; we don't know anything about that app yet because it's not there yet.For example, does it really become anonymous?Will it become voluntary? And if you refuse the app, can you still go to busy places?Can you easily post your covid status on Insta with one of these filters of a slightly too big mouth like whuuuppAll important questions.To get some inspiration, we can look abroad because they have had corona apps there for some time, such as in China.Residents of Wuhan can go out againwith an app in your pocket that keeps an eye on every step.If you go to the supermarket or other public placesthe time, location and your health are being registered.If that is in order you get a green codeIf one person in the metro is diagnosed with the coronavirus……everyone will be isolated.So in China this app tracks everybodyand according to the New York Times, such a Chinese app also sends that information to the police.-Oh yes, how does the New York Times know that?Well, in that app's software there was a piece called"reportInfoAndLocationToPolice"-Yes, okay.-Exactly. In China, they are not at all fussing about medical data,because in metro stations everyone's body temperature is announced.(a bell rings )36.4 °C [97.5 °F]36.5 °C [97.7 °F]36.4 °C [97.5 °F]The next gate screams if somebody has an STDand the third gate only asks if you'd hook up with the traveller.Yes!Yes!Sure!Yes!Yes of course!Yes of course!Horny gate.Yes, that gate is begging for itOkay, so what they do in China probably goes a bit too far for us.But we will stay in Asia for a while, because they have a different system in South Korea.There are public digital maps that indicate exactly where a COVID-19 patient has been.Then you can see if you have been there or if you should avoid that place for a while."And with the fast-spreading corona virus outbreak……information such as the restaurant and the hotel the confirmed patient went to……how they had arrived, which subway line……or the number of the bus they took is shown.Even the seat they had sat in at the movie theatre is being revealed."Yeah, that's too bad. So you cannot go to see Frozen 20 times anonymously anymore, Tex.Let it go.-Do you want to build a snowman?Let it go, Tex!In Korea, they check phones and credit cards of COVID-19 patients to see where they've all been.And people in the vincinity can get messages like this about someone who is infected.At 11:00: visit to the dentist.14:40: visit the bank,and between 15:15 and 15:30: visit Johnny Dumplings restaurant.Later, at 16:20, a visit to Pet Valley veterinary clinic follows,before taking a taxi home, at 17:00.Wow, quite a busy day.-So that gentleman first took out money, then paid for the release of a chicken from the restaurant Johnny Dumplings,and then brought it to a veterinary clinic. What a hero!-And then you might think: they don't care about privacy there, but it is happening in more countries.What can you do with that location data and what are the borders?That later, but first we go to Israel.Yes, for which many people also wonder where the border is, but that aside.The man who always stirs trouble in Israel is, as is often the case…Moses.I mean Netanyahu.Israeli intelligence agency Shin Bet follows smartphones from corona-infected people.The Netanyahu government tried to implement the measure under an emergency law in order to pass parliament."Parliament, if you could split this way in two, I can get through with the emergency law!"- I think you're on Moses again.
– Oh, now I hear it too.And apparently passing parliament is possible during corona times.And now everyone who is infected, as well as anyone near someone who is infected, ispermanently followed by the Israeli secret service.So there are many ways to tackle corona trafficking: through the secret service, mandatory like in Chinaor extremely public like in South Korea.But all those countries use your location.The government keeps track of where you have been and that is quite drastic.Okay, well, back to the Dutch app. What are we going to do here?Mister De Jonge, another question about your app;does it have some kind of GPS functionality built in?- Yes, using BluetoothIt's also possible using BluetoothIt uses, among other things, BluetoothHugo de Jonge seems to carefully hint at Bluetooth,which is the signal you can use for, for example, wireless headphones.How is this going to work?"The phone will then, using Bluetooth,…send a signal to anyone who has been near me for a certain timespan.Each signal has a unique number, so it's not easy to find out who it is…and as soon as I know I have the virus, I can let everyone know, using the app,that they have been close to a corona patient in the recent days[This pun does not translate. Please laugh.]Our not yet existing app probably does not have to know your locationbut it works using Bluetooth, which really is possiblebecause they already have such an app in Singapore, which doesn't allow for tracking by the government.Bluetooth, however, also has disadvantagesbecause as everyone knows who has been to the bathroom with a wireless headsetduring a Zoom meeting and suddenly got to hear what their colleagues _really_ thought of their interior design(true story)Bluetooth can go through wallsso with a system based on Bluetooth, an infected neighbor on the other side of the wallforce _you_ into quarantine for two weeks.A solution would be to tell that app where you live, but that makes it no longer anonymousSo the situation is as such: The government wants an app, but they do not know how yet – probably using Bluetooththey throw up the plan and we will see how people reactbecause that is what the MP Rutte crisis team takes into account when determining the policyThe crisis team bases its choices mainly on public sources, such as:polls by Maurice de Hond, the EenVandaag opinion panel, the mood in television programs and on Facebook and Twitteryes according to the nrc the government is looking at polls and social media to adjust their crisis policyand we just figured it out just a few weeks ago when you closed the schools softly last weekwith education we said that society does not have to be well thought of novelsthen it may not be a formal referendum but this is not something that I or a cabinetcan decide on our own that we also do a shift ion people yes we determine the with all the government looking at thepollsthe problem is just that those polls about the corona apps were taken before we knew anything about it so what we are aboutto happen now is this lookTuesday night the plan for that app was announced by hugo de young the next day, the media immediately asked everyone for his opinion,so today it was also the stentorthree-quarters gives up privacy and installs corona app tv rijnmond small majority wants to be warned via appbrabants daily newspaperthree-quarters of brabant respondents want app and all this within 72 hours after the announcement of an unknown person andthe government that sees all rutte also thinks a old people go back to workingthis it has been quiet for a few weeks and suddenlythe app is finished and and this time wassowe have to use it to think very carefullywhat we really think of such an app and a good starting point may be to firstlisten to an expert, how about marleen stikkerold summer guest, so you already know that you are in the right placeyes anyway yes here it is fun are you going to get married so once again summer guests yes it is the intentionyes yes you go then it opens a bit crazy with carola but you will take that into accountin terms of guests who you invite you are edited with the editors hey boys do tmarleen stikker was not only summer guest she was also at the cradle of the internet in 1993 and not of themnow I look at but now that she really helped with the design and she says this about that new appwhen we start using an app and that if they have another six important questionsthen you have to meet a number of criteriawe are guaranteed with privacy yes that seems to me really the basis that it is safeshe and a number of other experts have come up with a number of conditions that such an app should meettemporarily transparent completely anonymous voluntary and user-friendly and that the bodies seem very normal requirements but it is not self-evidentand take the conditions temporarily for example because we are now going to veryrigorous rigging and that makes sense because it is also a very big crisis but often that new technology does not just go awaybecause in five years the maybe a new virus will be slightly lessdeadly but we are all used to it so we just start itand maybe we can just use it for the common flu, many people die toowith that app it is a bit like with the career of mart smeets if you stop not agreeing on a clear end point and onceagain a point where the experts insist that that app must be voluntary because that is also not entirely certain, the use of that apps that becomes mandatoryWhat is necessary if you want to use it well, so many people who are really going to usethat is necessary or whether it is necessary for you to do that,that is something to explore in the coming period, so he says if not enough people to volunteer it may be mandatoryyou are free to go though if you want to do away lock the doorand even if the appis officially voluntary you can be forced to use it because what if your boss wants to see in your app every morning whether you areinfected and then that app is actually mandatory for you and no longer privateyou are already sitting long your finger upyes yes how many people should actually use that app to ensure that it worksthey ask good questions and continue to hugo 60%isthe number that now moneyok 60 percent that is quite a lotand such app works of course only if a lot of people who have installedthey planyes they say yeslook 62 percent so according to that premature poll there is enough interest for an app butso that was not based on any knowledgeand the question is whether so many people actually do that because in singapore involuntary bluetooth app already existed, only 16% of people installed it,which was not enough and they have now just a lockdownso even in the Netherlands it is still far from certain that an app will help if it is voluntary and regardless of thetechnical question of van, the encryption is good enough people have to participate, we must alsothink ahead because that app it should get society back on track, but what does that society look likeif a restaurant can refuse people without itwhat do you do when you see someone ignoring a notification and I just think of a new question every minutemeanwhile the polls have been so already here this was a day also within 24 hours after the app was announcedtwo thirds want a corona app too if that privacy limitswhat privacy how much privacy and again these a day readers had 0information please look one was right away you would install the cobit app on your mobile phone yes nohow busy about which cove the web and the people were allowed too give an explanation so you get these kinds ofreactions everyone who is talking about privacy violation should move to an uninhabited islandagain a chance of contaminationless that are the real plagues of this world and an opponent of the app says I am willing to give my life forfreedomand the government must try to make chocolate of thatwhen would someone take inwhat kind of person then? – That wie'll discuss later but first, would take someone in house now?but is it a nice person? That That's neither here nor there now, will you take this person or not?uh yes i am willing to give my life for hospitality!look everyone wants us to be able to go out safely again and such an app can certainly help with that, but we really have tothink carefully and not only along the lines of by elly we are dead or free and also not only technically in the sense ofhow well it is encrypted but also just how does life with such an app look like, your boss may demand that you install that app, your boss may demand that you show that app, youmay still travel by public transport without an app if you after two weeks ofquarantine you will immediately receive a report again, then you will stay in again for two weeks if your neighbor does have corona in your opinion that youstill report there so you will get through the wall,ignore that if someone ignores a report, the government must then to be able to checkyou must stay at home if you get one if your housemates are notified you will becomplicated if you are not allowed to work from the app for two weeks, we agree on an end date or we left the app as soon as the vaccineshow long does someone have to be around for you to count as contacts for 5 minutesand what if you are coughed in your face for less than 5 minutesI had yes yes no yes no no yes don't know maybe yes yes yes I say think firstand I see it now thinking again I have a bakeryand I am diagnosed with corona then I stay at homebut then I send my wife with my phone to the bakery of the competitor who thenhangs out there just like that long until his entire staff receives a notification and has to stay at home for two weeks what thenyes the police just have to check how expertly your phone is then it is no longer anonymousOkay we all want to get out of that intelligent lockdown andmaybe that is a fake, but then we really have to start thinking about these kinds of questions,talk about it with friends, don't all immediately visit each other now, noapp talk about it and if you get out havelet that measure as to the government than they need not blindly to an aDP about nothingYes, we will give away a subscription to the youtube channel Lubach Sunday with the winnerYOU, congratulations!!! 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